We invite our friend, Ginny Clarke, to Hacker Valley this week to talk about conscious leadership and self-awareness as a way to take our organizations to the next level. Using her prior experience at tech giants like Google and her five dimensions of leadership, Ginny explains how we can better hold the leaders in our lives accountable, what will benefit our civilization the most for future generations in the workplace, and where we should focus our efforts for diversity, equity, and inclusion.
[05:34] Losing her parents at a young age, connecting to a spiritual guide to cope with grief and stress, and getting back in touch with ourselves in order to connect with others
[12:03] Seeing and validating the past experiences of our fellow humans, healing ourselves in order to heal organizations, and acknowledging the role of mental health in the health of our companies
[16:34] Understanding diversity, equity, and inclusion beyond just hiring, and stopping yourself from waiting for an organization to step up to an opportunity that belongs to underrepresented communities
[22:38] Shifting the metrics of how we value organizations and leadership, and seeing where the accountability issues of CEOs for what they really are
[27:48] Leaving a legacy through creativity and inspiring others to recognize how they have the power to change the world
Thank you to our sponsors Axonius and Uptycs for bringing this episode to life!
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How do we move current leadership statistics to something much healthier?
With a depth of experience in recruiting executive leaders in a variety of organizations, Ginny shares a striking and horrifying statistic with us: 18% of leaders are considered good. Only 18% feels incredibly low, especially when a large portion of companies claims to hire the best leaders based on pedigree-level qualifications. In Ginny’s opinion, leaders are not held to a high enough standard in the workplace, and aren’t measured on their performance beyond basic financials. With so much more at stake, Ginny warns that companies are only as strong as their leaders, and are even weaker when they never hold those leaders accountable.
“That’s why we have organizations that are, I dare say, quite fragile. It’s because of the lack of leadership. They might have a lot of money, they might have really intelligent, well-educated people, but to the extent, those organizations don't have actual leaders for whom they are holding accountable for their leadership competencies.”
How do we show up better for others and really see the whole human?
We cannot improve our society as long as we continue to see ourselves as completely separate from it. This, among other world-changing views, guides Ginny towards seeing people beyond just their outward appearance, viewing them as a whole human, composed of all of their experiences. There is so much fear, anxiety, and bias, especially in the world of hiring and recruiting, and Ginny hopes to show up better for others through better accountability for our leaders and a stronger connection to ourselves.
“We, as a civilization, can't fix it as long as we're seeing it as separate from ourselves. So, that's where the self-love comes from, and the support and the sharing and the non-dualistic orientation, which defies everything about tech, right? Tech is all about the binary, the ones and zeros, and here, I'm talking about something that is far more inclusive than that.”
What have you learned from this big effort that we have going on with diversity, equity, and inclusion?
Ginny, much like many of us in tech, cares about efforts of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but believes that many companies talk the talk without ever walking the walk. When working with recruiters in large companies, Ginny discovered that many don’t understand how to implement diversity in an impactful way in their organizations, beyond appearances and statistics. Encouraging colleagues to be true to their authentic selves in the workplace, she believes that now is the time to embrace diversity at work beyond the limitations of waiting for company leaders to embrace them.
“I think there's been organizational malpractice as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion. I think you got a lot of people who actually don't want to understand it, they're not going to the root cause. They're throwing money at it, they're hiring a chief diversity officer and saying, ‘Okay, you fix it.’”
What do you think people can do today to start to make an impact and move the world in a positive direction?
The secret to changing the world? Ginny believes that it’s acknowledging that you have the power to change it at all. On her own spiritual journey, Ginny has discovered there’s so much more to our impact on our surroundings beyond our everyday actions at work. Using examples of heightened vibrations, inspired creativity, and personal accountability, Ginny explains that your ability to change the world has never been as powerful as it is right now, as our society and civilization continue to shift towards new forms of leadership and new developments in organizations are the world.
“I want to activate and stimulate people's imagination. You know, young kids have imagination and that creativity, that spawns, that manifests, that takes hold, that becomes real, and that's how we change the world, so that it's good for all and that becomes the objective. That's my legacy. It's creating good for all.”
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Hacker Valley Studio 00:07
Who says tech can't be human?
I'll tell you there are five dimensions. Know yourself, speak your truth, inspire love, expand
consciousness, and activate mastery.
Hacker Valley Studio 00:30
Welcome to the Hacker Valley Studio podcast.
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What's going on everybody? You're in the Hacker Valley studio with your hosts, Ron and Chris.
Welcome back to the show.
Glad to be back again, speaking with more amazing guests, and our guest today is someone that always captivates an audience, captivates an audience because of their passion and experience in helping others. In this episode, our guest is Ginny Clarke. Ginny is a leadership strategist, talent consultant, podcaster, keynote speaker, author, and much more. I'm sure we're gonna be able to unpack more about you, Ginny, and really hear your origin story and where you are at today, but most importantly, welcome to the podcast.
Chris and Ron, thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure and a delight to be with you today.
You know, I think back to when we first met you at Dev Color, and we saw you up onstage, and you're speaking and you're talking about your experiences and your expertise, and I was honestly captivated, came up to you, and spoke to you after that event. Ever since then, we've kind of stayed in contact, but for the folks out there that don't know who you are just yet, we'd love to hear a little bit about your background and what you're doing today.
Sure, I'll try to keep it relatively brief. I have a lot of years behind me and a whole lot more in front of me, I'm happy to say. Real quickly, I wanted to be a veterinarian when I went to college. So, I started off in animal science, switched to French linguistics, ended up in business school, I went into banking and financial services for a few years, and then, decided I wanted to be an executive recruiter. And so, I spent 12 years at a global executive search firm, Spencer Stewart, was made a partner there and helped build their global diversity practice. And then, on a humbug, I decided I wanted to leave. I was very happy, it's a great firm, but I wanted to write this book because I felt so strongly that so many of the people that I had encountered, these very senior executives from around the world, you know, real heavy stuff, right? But I thought, they're not thinking about this, right? This whole job thing. They would
come to the search firm, and say, "Okay, you guys, what do you have for me?" And like, that doesn't make any sense, because there are literally millions of opportunities out there that the search firm doesn't have. And I also thought, I've always come from a family of people who want to help serve others. Service is a key element of who I am and what I'm about. And so, I thought if I cannot just exist for the rarefied air of this sort of 1% of executives and offer something for everyone. I had, at the time, a teenage son and I wanted him to understand the agency that he had in managing his career.
So, I stopped, I wrote this book, I consulted for a number of years. Single mom and I needed to get my son through school and missed the partner compensation, so I went back to another firm, that firm sold after a couple of years, and then, Google came calling and said, "Would you help us with our executive recruiting function, specifically around diversity?" I was out there for four and a half years, built the diversity piece, built an internal mobility piece for them, and led a team of recruiters for their executive recruiting organization. And then, things got kind of crazy. There was a whole lot of churn, as there are in many of these tech companies, and a lot of leadership changes and reorgs and I just said, "Enough, I can't." I'm a purist. I understand the art and science of executive recruiting, and I didn't feel like I could do it well there. And so, I said, "I'm out. Thank you, I appreciate the opportunity," and moved back to Chicago and had been doing my own thing, which I love, which is the stuff that you mentioned. It's the speaking, the speaker's bureau, the podcasting, starting another book, doing a little consulting, and so, life is good right now. I'm doing all the stuff that I love and imparting knowledge, hopefully, and continuing to learn, which is my other passion.
Absolutely. You know, one of the common themes that seems to go throughout all your career, even the content that you produce, is about humanity and the human condition. And I'm sure, with your experience, and just your touch with people has given you a perspective that I'm sure not many people get. So, from your perspective, what do you think you understand about the human condition that a lot of people just don't get yet?
I love it. Let me mention something that is really important to me and that is, I lost my parents when I was still in my 30s. They were older when they came together and had me and my brother, and that, losing my dad first, was a real catalyst. I had two amazing parents, but my dad in particular was the first leader I observed, right? And was a coach and just an inspiration to me. And when he passed away, I was lost. I mean, I felt really rudderless on, what I now would call, a spiritual level, and I'm was introduced to someone, I call him my guru. And that was 28 years ago, and I'm still seeing this guru who helped me on my spiritual journey, and I bring that up, because that has been instrumental in shaping how I see humanity. And looking beyond, you know, as an executive recruiter, it's a great intersection, actually, because so many people get caught up in: What has someone done? What are their credentials? And their identity can be sitting in the title of their jobs, and how much money they make, and I kind of cut all through that, and instead say: Who are you? Right? Who are you as a person? And that's what I brought to everyone that I tried to deal with, frankly, you know, but as especially as a leader, it's like, okay, I don't care what's on your resume, as much as I want to know how you think and who you are, and how I can connect with you on a human level. And so, that's at its essence.
I think that is what is missing right now, I think that's why COVID happened to us as a civilization, so that we could get back in touch with ourselves and go inside, right? Metaphorically and physically, we had to go inside our homes, but I think the call was for us to go inside ourselves and to get in touch because if you can't be in touch with yourself, it's really hard to connect with someone else. And I think that's what a lot of leaders are missing on a practical level, and why we have organizations that are, I dare say, quite fragile, because of the lack of leadership. They might have a lot of money, they might have really intelligent well-educated people, but to the extent, those organizations don't have actual leaders for whom they are holding accountable for their leadership competencies, right? Because being
educated doesn't make you smart, being smart doesn't make you competent, and I think competency includes having a level of self-awareness, which to me is that beginning bridge to consciousness, and I talk in terms of conscious leadership a lot. So, that hopefully, these threads are connecting for you and helping you begin to see what I consider to be some of the most important elements of leadership, which comes all the way back down to the humanity, the who the person is. The who, less the what.
The threads are connecting, but now, I feel like I have a lot of loose ends that I want to jump into, just because there was a lot that you said. It was almost the simplest yet, you know, complicated way of thinking about things. And I would say that, if you want to hide a secret, you would hide it inside of a person, that's the best place to hide it because a lot of people, especially leaders, aren't willing to go within to find the answers that are going to help them become a better leader, family member, or person for their community. And you spoke about your guru, and I'm really excited to hear more about it, but I wanted to also ask you a bit about: What kind of opportunity could having a mentor, a guru, or something similar of that nature provide for our leaders? It sounds like it was something very specific for you. Do you have any stories, or examples, where someone has something similar? That is, you know, like we're sharing on this podcast.
Man, the nature of the work that I do with my guy, people aren't ready for. I mean, because I've explored the outer reaches, right? Of consciousness, with him, through some altered states and all of that. So, that's what I mean when I say a lot of people aren't ready. So, I'm kind of an advanced student, if you will, after 28 years of working with him. In fact, he just worked on me this morning. That was one of the reasons I moved back Chicago, he's down the street, and he does energy work and he sent some energy through my body that has got me realigned in a good way to deal with some of the things that I know are coming. But I guess, maybe I can talk about it in more practical terms, when I think about some of the people that I've had on my team and people for whom I've been a leader and a mentor, because a lot of it has to do with simply, frankly, holding up a mirror to them. And it's just kind of saying, "Alright, I hear you, but do you hear yourself? Can you see yourself? And is this where you want to be?" So, it's less about me trying to tell them, it's more about me trying to get them to have a deeper sense of self love and acceptance, and to stop arguing for their limitations. I hear so many people say, "Well, I can't do that." Why not? What if that didn't exist? What if that wasn't real? What if that's a belief that isn't true? All beliefs are not true, right? So, maybe, hopefully, that gives you a sense of how I approach it. And embedded in there are some of the things that I've gleaned from my dad, who was indeed a mentor to me, and other mentors and influential people in my life.
When you speak about situations and circumstances that sort of drive you in this direction, it gives you purpose, it gives you mission, one of the things I often come back to is that I look at people and I see their preoccupations and the way they act, and maybe they're self-centered or egotistical, but at the end of the day, when I look at people, I really see the child inside because obviously, there was something that happened to them when they were young, or maybe they didn't see feel seen, or they didn't feel valued. And you've been able to work with some of the most influential people in tech. When it comes to that, a lot of people forget about that other component. They see the brilliance, they see the intelligence, but they might not see some of the emotional disconnect or damage that other people have. How do we show up better for others, and really see the whole human?
Oh, this is a great question, Chris. I mean, I love the fact that you're pointing out the child in us. I once observed, when I was interviewing someone years ago, when I was a Spencer Stewart, I was sitting across the room from him and all of a sudden just saw him when he was 10 years old. That's how I saw him. And I thought, he was sort of that dorky kid who had his pants way up under his chest and, you know, glasses and was probably bullied, and he was a lovely man, I didn't see that as a weakness, but somehow, that was a flash that I got of something that he went through. And this is now how he's showing up, let me just be accepting of all of this, right? And I think, that's what we all need. When I see misbehaving people on the street here in downtown Chicago, I'm thinking, "This is embarrassing to me, but what have they gone through?" And maybe I can just send them some energy that says, "You're loved, and you don't need to act out and you don't need validation from other people." You know what I mean? So, it's like, I really want for people to get grounded, and for all of us to honor some of the trauma and the difficulties that we've all been through, because no one has gotten through this unscathed. At the same time, I think we all have to begin to acknowledge— I don't think a lot of people believe this, I do, but we didn't come here to suffer and there's a way to transcend all of that. It means surrendering to yourself to something bigger, you know, and I'm not trying to go to church, I'm not religious, but I think we need to begin to heal ourselves and when we can heal ourselves, then we're healing organizations. Organizations are nothing more than an amalgam of the people in them, right? I mean, otherwise, it's just something on a piece of paper. And so, I'm really intentional about trying to get people to acknowledge and some of their fears, biases, anxieties. Mental health has been talked a lot about, it's because it's a problem, right? There's a whole generation of young people, I have a son who's 26, I've watched him and a lot of his contemporaries challenged with anxiety and depression, or suicide. I mean, you know, there's all this angst and all this stuff, and it's like, we have another choice. It doesn't have to be this way. And I don't mean to minimize the severity of it by any stretch, but I'm saying, we as a civilization can't fix it as long as we're seeing it as separate from ourselves. So, that's where the self-love comes from and the support and the sharing and the non-dualistic orientation which defies everything about tech, right? Tech is all about the binary, the ones and zeros, and here I'm talking about something that is far more inclusive than that.
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Sometimes, it does feel as though, in order to get this healing, people want to see things change. They want to see things change in the workplace, they want to see things change with technology and how we're being served information. And one element that comes up for me quite a bit, especially whenever I can help organizations, is diversity, equity, and inclusion. Trying to bring in more people that wouldn't have known about technology and cybersecurity into the field, and in some ways, it's a very noble act to try to make more people aware, but sometimes, I feel as though we're all going about it a different direction than what we should. And you've been right in the driver's seat, helping executives find their way at some big organizations. What have you learned from this big effort that we have going on with diversity, equity, and inclusion and getting more worried about technology to underrepresented groups?
I'm gonna break that up a little bit. I think, organizationally, let's talk about that. And I use this reference in my talks, I think there's been organizational malpractice as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion. I think you got a lot of people who actually don't want to understand it, they're not going to root cause, they're throwing money at it, they're hiring a chief diversity officer and saying, "Okay, you fix it," which is ridiculous. And not much has actually changed. There's been some movement, but you're not seeing high levels of representation. Now, I'll spare you the intricacies of attempting to make some of these changes at Google and with some of my clients at Spencer Stewart, because it's a lot of mechanics, right? It's really breaking down: How are people being assessed? Who's good, better, and best? And there's a tremendous amount of room for bias in there, and a lot of people are hiring on the basis of things like, I've mentioned before, pedigree. What schools did you go to? Which companies did you work for? What degrees do you have? What were your test scores? All this stuff that, by the way, is never been correlated as a predictor for one's success in the role, right? And I was trained to use competencies, competency-based assessment, and that is what people need to be assessing on and not: How well do I know you? Are you friends? But that's rampant, okay? So, those basic things have yet to be fixed, and those are tools and processes that could be changed, if people really wanted to change them.
My conclusion is, there's no real commitment to change. Overall. I mean, you're gonna find some CEOs who are committed, and they can tell you their numbers, and all of that, but at a meta level, not the company, but a term, it's a term. The commitment isn't there. So, here's what I say to— I'm a Kellogg alum, and I was talking to some black Kellogg alums a few months ago, and they were saying, "Ginny, what do you think? What's your take? And how do we get better? And how do we make these organizations do better?" And I'm like, "Why are you even trying to get validation from some of these individuals inside of these organizations?" We're going into them. And oh, by the way, I've also concluded, I think I've alluded to this, that a lot of these leaders are not good at leading. I mean, there are plenty of studies out there that say that, there's a poll that said that 18% of leaders are considered good. 18. That's it. And the others are not considered to having strong leadership capabilities. 82% are not considered good at leading. So, here we've got, particularly people from underrepresented backgrounds, coming into these esteemed organizations going, "Okay, they finally let me in, and now I want to show them what I've got, and they're not paying attention to me," or, "They're intimidated by me, or they're threatened, or whatever, and I don't feel like I'm being seen or supported." And it's evidenced in different companies’ engagement surveys and what have you. And I'm saying: Why don't we stop waiting for the organization to be fixed for us? How about we change in ourselves and show up knowing that we belong and stop asking for permission and seeking validation? What if that happened? I'm not talking about a revolution, we're not armed. We're not here to be mad at anybody, we're just saying, "You know what? It's time. I'm showing up as me with all of my greatness," and that is what's going to help to change the whole landscape. That's because the skill is irrefutable.
Now, back to your original question about trying to get more underrepresented groups exposed to stem, I'm all about it, let's do it, whatever it takes. Whatever it takes, but again, are we waiting around for government to mandate some of these things? We have to find a way to do it. Just do it. I said to somebody, I was talking to a tech incubator here in Chicago, and they said, "Well, you know, we've got some of these corporate entities that are saying, maybe we'd like some of the students that you put through, but some of them just don't have the right experience." I said, "That's a BS comment. I don't even want to hear that." I said, "How about we use AI? And whatever kind of simulated, whatever it is, to simulate the experience." You're in tech, right? Simulate the experience for these young people, all of these young people, and let's see who does the best because experience does not make you smart. It doesn't mean you're competent. The experience, in and of itself, does not because I know tons of people who've had great experiences, beautiful resumes, incompetent. So, that's part of my answer for leveling the playing field, so that our young people know that they have access. There's plenty of money out there. We live in an abundant world.
There is plenty of money out there, and that 18% statistic is just dumbfounding to me because, with everything that you're saying, I really think of two things. Number one, culture starts at the top, right? Like you were saying, if you bring on someone that's going to lead diversity, equity, and inclusion, that's not going to fix everything because you have to be the one that helps make that change from a culture perspective. And then, I also think of ownership. So, for me, I'm leading Hacker Valley Media, right? We have staff, we have contractors, if there's a toxic environment or a non-inclusive environment, or there's issues with negativity, I have to take ownership as the CEO of the organization to say something I'm
doing, or not doing, is making this environment possible. So, it's up to me to start that change. I don't know, I mean, do you see that? Is this the same way as the leaders of these organizations, are they really the ones that set the tone for the culture? And then, how do we move that statistic from 18% to something much healthier?
So, you're right, this is an accountability issue. And the leaders, I would say, are at the top. The boards are not holding the CEOs accountable for what matters. They're holding them accountable for their performance, right? But they're not really looking at— I've always, for years, and I'm not an HR person, per se, even though that was a function I was in at Google, I've been in professional services, financial services. So, I look at the HR world as being something that is necessary. There are protocols, there are ways to measure people's, you know, the engagement surveys are really important. It's not just about the money, because if you didn't have the people, how are you gonna make money? So, I think we need to shift the metrics of how we're valuing organizations, that's gotten way out of alignment. And that's a tall order, because everybody's bought in and people have their equity and they're not letting go with that and it keeps going up. But what if it doesn't? I just saw an article yesterday, I think it was in Fortune, and it was saying Silicon Valley is hitting a wall. It's hitting a wall.
I think all the money is not flowing like it was because of performance. So, I think that's part of it. What are we actually measuring? So, the accountability hasn't been there to measure the quality of the culture. The culture is indeed an amalgam of the behaviors of the senior-most people. So, I don't care what's on your website, it's how you're showing up as a leader, and to the extent that you're being held accountable for those leadership competencies. How do you make decisions? How do you treat people? How do you build inclusive teams? How do you problem solve? Those are all leadership competencies that are separate apart from the domain expertise. And so, if those have never been measured, and you've hired a bunch of smart people and said, "Oh, figure out the rest of leadership stuff, we're scaling. It won't matter much. So what if you've never managed people before? Here's 1000 people, figure it out." And then, nothing is ever measured that actually matters other than the productivity, which is going to hit a wall because, in most cases, according to our statistic of 18%, these
1000 people have been poorly managed. So, I don't think I came up with an answer for you, except to call out the fact that we're not measuring the right things, and the level of accountability. Maybe it's shareholder activism. Maybe it's bottom-up, maybe the great resignation is helped by the workers kind of saying, "I'm not going to work in a toxic environment." I think it's a lot of these things that are still sort of emerging.
What's funny is, I think about this word legacy all the time. Ron and I, we talked about legacy at great lengths. And when we talk about, we talk about our firm's legacy in the healthiest sense that we can think of. I think a lot of folks might think about that egocentric view of legacy, like, "I'm going to make the biggest, baddest company that's going to make all this money and I'm going to be in the history books and they'll immortalize me, X, Y, and Z." But when I really think about legacy, true legacy, it's really about making an impact on other people, and I see that in you and everything that you're doing. At the end of the day, what is the legacy that you're hoping to leave for humanity?
Thank you. I have my podcast with dimensional leadership. And I'll tell you, there are five dimensions, it's know yourself, speak your truth, inspire love, expand consciousness, and activate mastery. And so, I think, if I can do those things, activate those things in other people, I'm convinced that that's going to help change the world, every aspect of it, way different from what we know it. That's what I see, when I allow myself to go into meditation every morning, and what I project out. We're about to enter a whole
different phase of our civilization. That's my prediction. What does it look like? I can't tell you, because I don't know, because we've not seen it before. But we're creating it right now. That's the exciting part to me. That's what gives me hope, and that's why I want to activate and stimulate people's imagination. You know, young kids have imagination and that creativity, that spawns, that manifests, that takes hold, that becomes real, and that's how we change the world, so that it's good for all and that becomes the objective. That's my legacy. It's creating good for all.
I'm coming up with two additional words: freedom and empowerment, right? Having the freedom to move, and then being empowered to do so, whether it's through skills, or support, or knowledge, whatever it is. There's someone that's listening right now, they want to live in this world of Ginny, right? Because I feel like you have this mental clarity about the way things should be, and they want to be a part of it. How do they spread that even further? What do you think people can do today to start to make an impact and move the world in that direction?
That's a beautiful question. You know, I think so much of it is, we underestimate the power that we have to change lives. I was walking down the street the other day. I was walking behind some people, one of whom was disabled and was moving a little slowly. And so, the other people with him were very protective and, as I slowed down, I said, "No, no, no, take your time." And they, they said, "No, go ahead around us." And as I walked by, the guy said, "Wow, you've got a vibe." And I said, "You talking to me?" He goes, "Yeah, what a vibe." And I just smiled, I said, "Have a great time in our city." But what he was sensing was my vibration, where I literally vibrate, what is my frequency. And so, I want to see everyone attempt to raise their frequency, go into that aspect of yourself where you feel good, right? We're waiting for other stuff to make us feel good. Don't you understand that you can only feel good if you choose to? If you choose to. Seeing a flower, you can look at it in disdain, or you can look at the beauty in it. So, when we decide that we want to own our realities, and honor our choices, and share love with those around us, to me, that's creating this new world in the moment because we're part of it. It's exponential. It's more than exponential, it's Quantum. Now, I'm taking your way out there, but literally, right? I mean, I said to some women I was speaking to a few months back. You know, we sometimes feel insignificant like that drop in the ocean? But don't you understand that you have the power of the ocean in that drop and you are part of it? You're always part of it. So, that's really the message that I have for anybody who wants to be part of this. The movement is within you and the movement becomes contagious and has an exponential effect. It starts with love and you guys know me a little bit, I'm not sappy and sweet and you know, that's not that's not me. I'm kind of hard hitting, but I'm hard hitting with a tremendous amount of love and compassion and empathy. And those are the things that, I think, we need to bring us together as a collective, that has this enormous exponentially
greater power to overcome all of the darkness that we're seeing in the world right now.
Powerful, absolutely powerful. I knew this conversation was not going to disappoint. It was an honor to hop on the mics and talk with you. For the folks out there to want to stay up to date with you and all the incredible things that you're doing in the world, what are the best ways for people to do that?
It's probably just, you know, I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter. My website is GinnyClarke.com. And the podcasts, all that stuff, it's all on there. So, that's probably the easiest way, but you guys, thank you. This has been such an honor, and you're just so good at what you do. I'm so proud of you and so grateful.
Thank you. The honor and pleasure is ours. And hopefully, we get to do it again sometime soon. It's always great speaking to you and hearing from you, and we also dropped your information in the show notes for everyone to stay up to date with you. Ginny Clarke, thank you again. And with that, we'll see everyone next time.
Hacker Valley Studio 31:09
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